Recovery Begins At Night: Rethinking Beds, Cooling, And Habits, Sleep Expert Derek Hales, EP 303

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Champions Mojo podcast, where we bring you interviews and topics to help you live well and swim well, conversations especially meaningful for master swimmers and anyone striving to perform better in the water or in life. We're here to champion you. And now your host, Kelly Pallas.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Today's guest is someone every master swimmer and wellness seeker should pay attention to because recovery, energy, and performance all begin with one overlooked pillar sleep. Joining us today is Derek Hales, founder of Knapp Lab, and one of the most trusted experts in mattress testing and sleep optimization. Derek's journey started as a newlywed, simply trying to find a better mattress without paying showroom prices. That curiosity turned into deep research, and what began as a one-person project quickly grew into a full testing lab. Today, Derek and his team have tested more than 500 mattresses, helping millions of people make smarter, evidence-based decisions about their sleep. For masters, Derek's work matters because better sleep means better recovery, stronger training sessions, fewer aches, and more consistency in the pool. Derek cuts through the marketing noise and focuses on what truly supports the body, something every athlete and health-minded listener can appreciate. Derek, welcome to Champions Mojo.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

We are just so thrilled because sleep is just incredible. And like you, you were a newlywed looking for a mattress. My husband and I are actually about to buy two mattresses. And so he said, wow, this is perfect timing. So I I just I guess I want to start with what is it that you think is the the biggest mistake that people make when they are selecting a mattress?

SPEAKER_02 2:10

I think the the biggest mistake is simply not spending the correct amount of money. And this kind of cuts both ways. You have the mattress industry that has spent decades trying to convince people that you need to spend five to ten thousand dollars just to get a good quality mattress. That's just not true. You do not need to spend five to ten K to get a right mattress. On the inverse, you have a group of people that are so opposed to this notion of spending a lot of money, they they've gone too far the opposite direction, that they think they can spend two, 300 bucks and get a mattress that's just as good as one that's a thousand or two or three thousand dollars. That's not true either. So you have these extreme camps that you really want to avoid. Most people will be best served by a mattress in that sweet spot, let's say around$1,500 to$2,000 for a queen size. That really maximizes sort of the quality performance that you can get out of a mattress before diminishing returns start really to pick up. So I think the biggest mistake is just not spending the right amount of money to get something that's gonna last.

Finding The Sweet Spot And Feel

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Okay. We have the bell curve out there. We have people who overspend and then people who underspend. How do we find that sweet spot? What are things that we might want to look at? Is it all individualized, like how tall I am and how much I weigh, or how many hours I sleep, or what would be some things to determine which one we go for?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

So definitely uh body weight, sleeping position, and also just general preferences around firmness. Those are sort of the big three things that we look for. That being said, the vast majority of sleepers are going to be best served by a medium to medium firm feel mattress that's$1,500 to$2,000. And if you aren't really sure what materials you like, latex, memory foam, that sort of thing, just go with a hybrid mattress. That's going to be multiple layers of polyfoam on top of a coil unit just to create a more balanced, moderate, and even non-polarizing feel. Again, the vast majority of sleepers are best served by that medium to medium firm feel,$1,500 to$2,000 and a hybrid that just creates a feel that most sleepers can be comfortable on.

Off‑Gassing, VOCs, And Latex Odor

SPEAKER_01 4:17

That's great. The thing that I find when I am buying a new mattress, which for whatever reason I've had to do many times recently, there is an odor that comes off of a new mattress. And I'm I'm a super sniffer, as they call it, and I cannot stand that. And so I'm thinking, oh, I have to have a green mattress. That's so tell us about the toxicity in a mattress.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Sure. So the most sort of offensive type of odor, when people think of odor or off-gassing or smell on a mattress, what they're usually thinking of is polyurethane foam mattresses or memory foam mattresses, which is just another type of polyurethane foam. And the reason those mattresses smell is due to off-gassing. It's basically gases are trapped in the mattress during the manufacturing process. And then once that mattress gets to you, you cut the plastic off, you get it out of the box, the off-gassing period begins, and it's able to release those gases, those VOCs into the air. Usually within a week or two weeks, that off-gassing ends and the smell will largely go away. But some can take many months and some can just never stop smelling. On the inverse, there are polyurethane and memory foam mattresses that only smell uh for a very short duration. It just kind of depends on the particular foam formulation. One thing to note though, because a lot of people are under this notion that, oh, a green mattress and organic mattresses, natural mattress is going to be so much better. Uh and in some ways it is, because while those mattresses do still smell, it isn't the same type of chemical-based off-gassing. When you're on a natural mattress, a latex mattress, an organic mattress, the smell is coming typically from the latex. So it's more of a rubbery smell, um, which most people still prefer that over the memory foam, the polyurethane, the chemical-based type off gassing. And yet it is still a very strong smell. So I do still warn people that are considering that, thinking that it's going to be like this silver bullet, no smell because it's all natural, it's all green. That's it's just not exactly true. There is a very strong smell there, and that smell can also persist for you know anywhere from weeks to months, depending on the exact type of materials that they're using.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

That's so disturbing to me that you're trying to get your rest and you're actually smelling VOCs. And sometimes, like you said, sometimes it's short, but still, even for me, one night of choking on a VOC up to, like you said, sometimes it's months. I I think I've actually had to like move a mattress into another room because I didn't like the smell of it. Is the off-gassing of latex better for our bodies than the VOCs?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Volatile organic compounds.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

And so most latex manufacturers will argue that there are no actual VOCs. Depending on your sort of hard definition of VOCs, you could argue that there is no off-gassing because it's not a VOC on a latex mattress. Some uh will argue that that's not entirely true. Uh, but as a general rule, I would say the smells, the gases, the odors coming off a latex mattress are not going to be as harmful as those coming off memory foam and polyurethane foam mattresses, just by virtue of what those material mattresses are made out of. And yet we don't have any body of sort of clinical evidence or empirical study around this. We we know sort of you know what those are made out of, and we know roughly the danger levels of those chemicals, and yet there's not any great sort of university-backed study saying that, okay, here is the danger uh and then the outcomes of sleeping on these types of mattresses versus these types when it comes to VOCs.

Latex Versus Memory Foam Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Okay. I have taken everyone down my own personal rabbit hole, but I hope that some people will benefit from that. So is there a difference just in general in the sleep quality that one does get if you if you decide to go all latex or all organic, is that not as supportive or not as good of a mattress because you're trading that lack of you know possible more damaging VOCs for organic material?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

The answer is it can, right? And it really just comes down to your personal preferences. The the problem, if if you could say there is one with latex mattresses, is simply that latex is a very polarizing feel. Some people really love the feel, some people really hate it. It's very different than most types of polyurethane foam, it's different than memory foam, it's different than traditional mattress. And so it's a feel that just doesn't work great for everybody. And so, again, a lot of people kind of come with the notion like, oh, it's it's natural, it's organic. That must make it good. Uh, and it is good from a sort of healthy material, sustainable, you know, eco-friendly perspective. But just because it is all the same, doesn't make it a silver bullet in terms of meeting your specific needs as a sleeper. While there are certainly more off-gassing issues with, again, memory foam, the type of pressure relief support, body contract hug that those mattresses create is really desirable for a large portion of sleepers and consumers. That type of bed, while it has again its problems with off-gassing, may still create better sleep and better restoration for your body at night compared to a latex, just depending on what really feels working well for your body.

Do We Even Need A Mattress

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Okay. So do we need a mattress? Like, could we possibly sleep on the floor? I think in some cultures, they're on the floor and it's gotta be hard. Do we need a mattress or could we possibly work into sleeping on the floor?

SPEAKER_02 9:47

I think it's it really depends, right? I think if you look at Japanese culture and lots of different Asian countries, very firm mattresses with their, I say it's a mattress, they're not a mattress. Futons are very thin sleeping pads. They're very firm, they're almost on the floor essentially. I think if you've grown up sleeping on that and your body is accustomed to it, then yeah, that that is great and can work well. However, I think for a lot of people in the United States and in many Western countries that have grown up sleeping on more, let's just say, medium to medium firm, or traditional type, you know, say 10 to 14 inch kind of mattresses, it is very hard to train your body into that. And I think it's just kind of what you get used to. Can you do it? Probably so. Uh, in talking to my readers over viewers over the years, I've had some try it. And in the vast majority of cases, they end up going back to a sort of regular mattress just because they just their body couldn't make the switch. And so it seemingly that you could force yourself to do it, but I do kind of wonder if your body, as you're growing up, sort of sets a certain sort of standard on what it expects as far as support and feel, and it just gets harder and harder to switch as you get older. Uh, that's just sort of, you know, my kind of guess based on sort of the uh just stories and uh that my readers have shared with me over the years.

Sleep Positions And Habituation

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah, I guess if you if you had to do it, you you you could, right? And sleeping positions, is there uh the a most common sleeping position?

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Most common is definitely side sleeping, though the vast majority of us are combination sleepers. We sleep in you know two or more positions. So, but side sleepers is by far the most common, something like 87% of all people sleep on their side, at least some of the time.

Sleep’s Impact On Recovery And Longevity

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah. I was watching a documentary. I don't think it was Nelson Mandela, but it was another person who spent a number of years in prison and then wrote a book about it. And they were they slept on concrete and they had to sleep on their back. They were allowed a pillow and they had to sleep on their back and they had to keep their arms crossed across their chest in a cross position. And it was a way that the guards could see, you know, their hands were safe and what they were doing, and that everyone looked the same, so that if they were out of sync, then yeah. And the this person said, I think I I heard them on a podcast, they said that they now that's the only way they can sleep. So interesting, you know, just to your point that it's what we get used to, probably. But I thought, wow, and so many nights sometimes I'm going to sleep after I heard that. I'm thinking, putting my hands on my chest, but it's actually that's not a bad position. I mean, if if you had to be put in one position and you must stay there, that would be probably, you know, something that we could all do. Well, okay. All right, okay. We're gonna come back to mattresses, but I I want to talk about sleep because not only have you become a mattress expert, but you are an expert on sleep. So what would be something you could share with athletes, how we can think about sleep and how much it might matter in performance?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

I I think there is nothing more important to the body than good sleep. Whether when we're talking physically, mentally, emotionally, energy levels, mood, it is the single greatest determinant to, I think, overall well-being. I think more than diet, more than exercise, more than anything. A study recently came out just last week. I forget the specific journal it was in, but they looked at uh sleep with respect to longevity and just how you know how long people are living. It was associated with greater longevity compared to all other factors except for one, smoking. So don't smoke and then make sure you're getting great sleep. So I think sleep is just paramount to everything we do. When we get great rest, when we're restored at night, the body can recover, the muscles can recover. Again, your your mood, your energy, everything is optimized at its best possible level when we're getting great sleep. And the opposite is true when we're not. When you cut the hour short, you don't get seven to eight hours. You know, you're you're more likely to get sick. You're going to have energy problems, you're going to have a harder time recovering. And that's particularly a problem for athletes who absolutely need sort of the best recovery at night possible.

Power Naps That Help Not Hurt

SPEAKER_01 14:23

And how about naps? Do you have you studied naps at all?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

So nap is something where we've seen uh a decent number of university-backed studies over the years. Uh, and generally it the consensus is this that short naps can be great because they give you an immediate boost to energy in the day, help you get the stuff done that you need to that day. But generally you want to keep those short, like less than 30 minutes. The the problem with napping, if if there you could say there is a problem, is that once you sort of get beyond that 30 minutes, you're dropping more into REM cycles. Uh, and it just becomes harder for your body to come out of that. And so unless you sort of really, you know, time your sleep so that you know that, okay, in a 90-minute nap, I can have a complete REM cycle and wake up refresh. That's great. But if you just let yourself go down and come back up anyway, that may then impact your ability to get to sleep at night. And so you're just trading a nap during the daytime for lost sleep kind of at night. So the the vast majority of studies that I've seen on the topic really point to keeping the naps shorter, 30 minutes or less as a sweet spot.

Room Temperature Versus Cooling Beds

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah, I think I've definitely found that for myself that, you know, if I'm 30 minutes or under, it doesn't hurt me at night. Yeah, but if I go, if I go over that, if I had a really hard workout and I sleep for an hour, then it's just it's harder to fall asleep. And then that's a bummer because then you start worrying, oh no, I can't fall asleep. I can't wake up for my morning practice. But um, okay, so temperature in the room, and then we'll go to mattresses, these temperature regulating mattresses. So the ideal, I believe the ideal, and you can correct me on this, but is somewhere in the 60s, like to have your room in the 60s, which is almost impossible to do if you live in a warm climate. Um you just have to crank your AC down, and then that's kind of a waste because you're cranking your AC and you you're covered in blankets in a hot summer. But what A could we do environmentally? Andor does that translate into, oh, you just need a a mattress that that's cooling because they are out there where the mattresses will keep your body at a certain temperature.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Yeah, so certainly if you can get your HVC to get down into you know 67 to 69 degrees, most of the sort of the university-backed studies that I've seen point to that being sort of the optimal temperature. But you're right. If you live in a hot climate like I do in Arizona, it's it's almost impossible, uh, particularly in the summertime. Um, so in lieu of that, you know, doing kind of everything you can to make it as cool as possible. So, of course, you have kind of all the stuff on and around the mattress, the the mattress itself, the sheets, mattress protector, your dravet and comforter, all of those are having an impact on how well the the bedding in the mattress is able to breathe, how well it's able to wick moisture and just in general keep you cooler. So making sure you sort of do everything you can for the stuff that you're actually sleeping on. And then we have this have the sub sort of in the room. Of course, again, the HVAC. If you have ceiling fans or box fans that are you know moving air around the room, that certainly helps. Uh, and then as we talk about just sort of like thermal gain from windows, if you have a window, then you can you know close your blackout shades, close your blinds. That will help particularly in the morning so that you're not you know getting uh extra heat into the room and just again having better control over the temperature and keeping it kind of as low as possible.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

And now how about the actual mattress itself that cools?

What Actually Cools In A Mattress

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, so it cooling on a mattress is by far the most important thing that you know sleepers care about. You know, we are constantly surveying our readers and our viewers to make sure we know exactly what's the highest priority, and cooling is always the highest priority. And so it's one of those things that a lot of mattress manufacturers have figured out as well. So they're trying to build cool mattresses, but they're also desperately trying to market themselves as a cool mattress, even when that may not necessarily be true. So when you are stopping for a new mattress, it's definitely it's good to have a level of skepticism about anything related to cooling because it's not all true, really. Um, so when it comes to cooling, I think the the biggest thing that we can do is simply have a mattress that has coils. So um mattresses are great in this area because they have a pocketed coil base. It's going to create more airflow and more breathability in the mattress. And it's just physically less material that can absorb and retain heat. This is in contrast to, say, like an all-foam mattress where it's just an entire block of foam that is going to gradually absorb and retain more heat. And kind of like no matter how good everything else is on that all-foam mattress, there are very few exceptions where an all-foam mattress is going to be a hybrid mattress. So definitely hybrid mattress is where I would sort of start my search for cooling. Beyond that, it gets really difficult. And the challenge is simply because of the way that brands market their materials. Uh, for example, something like gel as a material type can and does improve cooling on a mattress. But it really comes down to both the quantity of gel and the quality level. So when we have situations where a brand has just sort of sprinkled gel beads in, that's not going to do much. When they've swirled some, you know, 2% gel mixture into the foam, that's not going to do much. We need a substantial quantity of gel before it really starts to have a notable impact. And that really kind of applies to all of the major cooling methods, whether we're looking at, you know, gel, titanium infusions, copper infusions. Infusions, whether we're looking at thermoreactive fibers, salient, whether we're looking at phase change materials that are in the cover or sprayed on. We need both quantity and quality. And even as somebody who really knows a lot about this, until I like physically put my hands, my body, and my thermal cameras onto the mattresses, it's really hard to know. I can make a good guess, but brands have really made it hard to know exactly, you know, what's good and what's not so good. And then as a result, it's hard to know just how good cooling performance can be.

Active Cooling Systems Compared

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah. And then I wonder when you're bringing in all these weird, you know, chemicals and things that haven't been tested, like what is the gel made of? What are the beads made of? What is the, you know, that all adds to that VOC, which is one of my top things. I mean, I really don't want to be sleeping on something that doesn't, you know, smell good. And then isn't there, it's not the mattress, but there's like this device that you put on top of your sheet that has a little machine under the bed that actually it's like a layer of cool water that you sleep on. Are you familiar with that?

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yes, exactly. So I sort of classify these products as active cooling systems. So uh eight sleep, uh, chili pad, and bedjet are sort of the big three right now on the market. Uh now bedjet is distinct from the others, where it is more of a miniaturized HVAC fan sort of system. It has like a special set of sheets and it's just sort of always blowing air onto the sleeper while they sleep. Uh, chili pad and eight sleep, these are basically water-cooled mattress pads. So they have flexible tubing that runs through the mattress pad. You put that on top of your mattress, you say if you want to be warmer or cooler, and then it sends the appropriate water temperature in that, drawing heat away with that water and helping you be more cool at night.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Have you tested any of those?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yes, I've tested all three of them.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

And what is your favorite one to be cooler, Mr. Arizona?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

I mean, AFleep is absolutely the best. There, there is no question. Uh, and yet the system is like two to five thousand dollars and also has a monthly subscription thing. So it is just sort of absurdly priced. Chilipad is something like$600 to$800. Again, still very expensive, but uh markedly less so than eight. Bedjet, uh, I I don't love it just because I don't love air blowing up. I know some people, you know, love the fans, so if that's you, like go for it. But for me, it wasn't a great fit. So definitely I think chili pad is probably the best overall value, but eight sleep is the best performer if uh kind of money is no object and you just have to have the absolute best cooling.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Do you use any of those yourself personally?

SPEAKER_02 22:39

I do not know. I am not an especially hot sleeper. I have uh weirdly low body fat thanks to my dad's genetics. Uh and so I am kind of just always cold, even when it's not really cold outside.

Noise, Off‑Gassing, And Practical Use

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Oh, that's a gift. So I mean, when you live in Arizona, that's a gift. Yes. Um, so would you on the eight sleep? And that was specifically my um my husband listens to another podcast. Uh it's called the Jim Bros or the Meatheads, or I don't know what he calls them, but anyway, they're talking all this week. Well, yeah. They're talking about um all this the eight sleep, eight sleep, eight sleep. So he said, Oh, you gotta ask Derek about eight sleep. And to me, it just seems like it would be loud and probably have a lot of potential for off-gassing. Did you find either of those?

Pajamas, Celliant, And Recovery

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Off-gassing, no, because there's just not a whole lot to it as far as material. It's just a thin sort of layer of fabric, and then you have the the tubing in it. So there's really not much that could off-gas, especially compared to how the way the polyurethane foams and memory foam. Uh, there's no there's no foam in it. So no off-gassing there. Um, noise, you know, it's I think it just depends on how sensitive you are. I don't, I did wouldn't describe it as a high level of noise, somewhere between slight to moderate. So if you are very sensitive, yeah, it's it's gonna be a bit of a bother. So you've got basically a little box that sits on the floor that can go under your bed. Um, and that's what's doing the cooling or heating as you need.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Okay, as a sleep expert, pajamas or no pajamas?

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Uh, I think in general, no pajamas is better. It's just better for breathability, it's better for keeping your body cool. Uh, if you do go pajamas, I would say go with cellion. I don't know if you've seen or heard much about celiant fibers. It's basically a special type of fiber that has been clinically proven to increase basically oxygenation through your blood flow, which has all sorts of benefits for muscle recovery and cooling. Um, so if you do go with pajamas, find a full set of cellion. And I think that can make a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

The material is actually called cellulin.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Uh cell, C-E-L-L-I-N-T.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Wow. Okay, that's good, good tip. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Yeah, you'll you'll see that sometimes in mattresses as well, mattress covers, uh, sometimes in sheets as well. Uh and the the clinical studies are, you know, basically whenever you know cell is in direct contact on the body, it has all of these uh benefits, basically turning uh heat into infrared light, which then has an impact on oxygenation in the body. It's uh it's really interesting science to see uh material work this way. But this is another one of those things where you know just sort of sprinkling in a little bit is not going to have a big impact. But if you have that in a set of pajamas on your body, then it can really have a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So that might not even, I mean, that might be good even if you were a no pajamas person. It could it possibly help with, you know, our recovery and and healing?

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Absolutely. I think it's certainly worth trying. I think for for any of your swimmers that are, you know, looking for any possible edge, you know, get getting a set of uh selling pajamas for, you know, a hundred bucks or so is absolutely worth the cost, uh, particularly if you're if you're already sleeping in pajamas, like it's a no-brainer.

Simple Pre‑Sleep Routine That Works

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Wow, that's really cool. Oh, I love it when I'm I get something that I really learned. This is uh cool and exciting. All right. Do you have your own personal sleep, uh pre-sleep routine? I know everybody, I know in our household we have like five things that we do consistently. And I wondered, do you do one? And are you a great sleeper?

SPEAKER_02 26:26

I'm a pretty good sleeper, I think for the most part. I used to be a better sleeper before kids. Um, the kids really make it uh a challenge, but to the extent it's still within my control, I sleep pretty well. I usually get at least, you know, seven, seven and a half hours a night. Um my routine is pretty simple. I think the biggest thing for me um in recent years has just been getting getting off the phone. Uh I just try to make a point to just put the phone down at least, you know, 30 minutes, if not an hour before bed. Uh, stay off that. Beyond that, I know I just I have my sort of standard get get ready uh to sleep at night. And then once I'm in the bed, I'll I'll do you know a few minutes uh uh meditation just to kind of calm down, just sort of you know, take stock of the day uh and just sort of you know try to empty my mind so that I can uh I don't have just this loop of to-do things stalling through my head. Sort of uh years ago I really struggled with that where I just couldn't shut my mind off from the giant to-do list. And so taking uh a few moments to just, you know, mentally go through those and then let them go. That's uh that made a big difference for me.

Separate Bedrooms And Better Sleep

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah, and I'm sure it routines will definitely vary depending on what stage you are, you know, in life. If you've got small kids, man, you got a big routine of getting them ready for bed, and then you've got to get yourself ready. Yeah, my husband calls himself, you love this, he calls himself a professional sleeper. I mean, he he does not, it is the most important thing to him. Our family and friends know. So his routine, which I just love talking about these, I think they're fun. So he will try not to, unless he really he will not eat dinner after five because he thinks you need he needs all I know. He's he eats, you know, because he he thinks that that'll help him sleep better if he's had a big window of digestion. We are not allowed, we're business partners in our you know, company, our real estate company, which we've been together with for you know 20 years. We cannot talk about business two hours before sleep. So, you know, it because you will, you'll get into something that'll just you'll just start grinding on. Um no overhead lights after like two hours before, and then out come his orange glasses. So he wears orange glasses if we decide to watch a movie, or we do want to just play on our phones for a little bit, orange glasses, definitely no screens before an hour before bed. We will play cards, we play cards a lot, which is a great pre-sleep game because you just you know you're not thinking about the day and you're not grinding on something, and then we pretty much go to bed at the same time every single night because and we try to wake up at the same time every single night. And then um, I'm I'm just gonna divulge it here because I want to ask you about it as well. We sleep in separate bedrooms, and that's how serious that our sleep is. We're still very romantic and we have our joint bedtime. If one of us wakes up early, we might go to sleep together and then go to our own rooms. But I think that when you have that luxury, and it is a huge luxury to have two bedrooms, that there are more and more couples that are coming out and saying, Yeah, well, my parents slept in separate rooms forever. Whether it's snoring or consistent trips to the bathroom, or just somebody that rolls around a lot and doesn't we initiated this when I was um going through something called topical steroid withdrawal, and I was so itchy all the time. I there was about a 10-year period where my average sleep duration was about 40 minutes, and then I'd wake up and scratch for 40 minutes. So he started in his own bed. And but if you tour um like the White House or um even the Biltmore state in North Carolina, the really people that had the luxury of having two bedrooms, the husband and wife had separate bedrooms because it just it's like if somebody has a cold, you know, you're in you have your bedroom, you still have that, you know, intimacy and and romantic time. But when it's time to sleep, that is how seriously we take sleep in our house.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Yeah, that's great. And I mean, I think you're not alone in that. I mean, you gave great examples. I've seen, you know, the media characterize it far more dramatically as a sleep divorce, which is, you know, big and scary. But no, I think there's there's a lot of you know good reasons to to sleep separately if you have the space for it for all the reasons you mentioned. Just being able to stay asleep longer, sleep uninterrupted, uh is hugely beneficial for your health and wellness.

Final Buying Advice And Budgets

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yeah, I I think the sleep divorce sleep divorce is just, you know, it's just to get clicks because it has made our relationship all the more better. In fact, it's like I miss him at night. You know, I'll wake up in the morning and run to him or he'll run to me. And it's it's really nice. And I I, you know, I'm putting it out there vulnerably to say, you know, consider it if it's a problem. And um, some, you know, some people just no way. I wouldn't, you know, we've we've taught all of our friends and all of our family know about it. And some of them have followed suit, and some are like, there is no way we could ever sleep apart. So um, you know, that's a very personal choice. But if sleep is really important to you, then um, and that and your partner is is getting in the way, then you know, you might want to have that that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Absolutely, absolutely. And even if you don't have two separate bedrooms, just having you know two twin XL mattresses sort of separated in a master primary uh bedroom can make a big difference as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, you can go back to the television shows of the 1960s and 70s, they were all in uh twin beds. Yes. So, well, Derek, this has been wonderful. I always finish with the last question. If is there anything that I have not asked you? Because, you know, I I could talk about sleep all day long. I just I think it's a very deep and broad topic. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think you would like to share with us on this topic?

SPEAKER_02 32:28

I think we've covered most of the big things. So um one thing I always encourage my readers when they're you know shopping for a mattress is to one, you know, make sure you're spending the right amount of money. And we would hit on that a little bit earlier. That$1,500 to$2,000 sweet spot for a queen, I think is sort of the optimal amount, where uh up to that you're just getting more and more and more. After that, you start to get sort of the diminishing returns on sort of how much you're getting in a mattress. There really is no need to spend more than$3,000 on a mattress with very few cases. Uh, if you're getting all organic, all natural, okay, yes, you're probably gonna spend a little bit more. But these beds that are, you know, five, six, seven, eight, ten thousand dollars in the vast Ashford cases, you just don't need to spend that. So I hate seeing people overspend on mattresses just really paying for the brand name. So know that you can get a great quality mattress for a lot less than what many uh mattress brands would want to have you believe.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Okay, Derek, we are about to pick out our mattresses. So I hear that Sleep Nap has a great thing that we can use. Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Yes, we have uh basically it's a service where we provide personalized and free recommendations to our readers. So you answer a few questions about your needs, your preferences, your firmness, your budget. Uh that goes straight to me or somebody else from my team. We go through that, we compare it to every mattress that we've tested, and then we send you back a personalized mattress recommendation within 24 hours.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Wow. That's a really nice service. And we will definitely be doing that. And now we all know that we'll be getting two, one for Mark and one for me.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

So perfect.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yeah, awesome. All right, thanks again for being with me today.

Closing And Review Request

SPEAKER_00 34:06

It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening to the Champions Mojo podcast. Would you consider leaving us a five star review on Apple? That's like getting a best time for us. Kelly and our team would be so grateful. See you next week for another Boost of Mojo.